Real Reporting Editor: Sometimes the authorities serve up important information in a clandestine manner. The following interview was posted at a Hungarian web site that apparently was set up solely for its publication and the site is untraceable. The ‘source’ appears so knowledgeable and the insights so profound that we are republishing the article. Decide for yourself what to accept and what to reject. Incidentally, “Goodfriend” is the name of the American chargé d’affaires to Hungary who has been head of the United State embassy in Hungary over the past for two years in absence of an ambassador.
“Goodfriend’s tie-pin”
Dear Sir/Madame,
One of our intelligence sources, who chose to remain anonymous, has shared some of his insight with us a little while ago. He used to work with Mr. Woolsey at the CIA (in 303) then specialized as an advisor in Central-Eastern European matters including Hungarian.
A political incident so severe is unprecedented in the history of Hungarian – American diplomatic relations. Banning members of the Hungarian elite from entering the US is a surprisingly strong step, how do you feel about that?
Yes, that is true, but the case itself is very severe as well.
Can you recall such a serious diplomatic conflict between the US and Hungary throughout your career?
Actually, I can. I’m rather old, you see. Sure enough, there was another serious incident in the past, and I think that the older generation of the intelligence community still remembers that clearly. The previous Hungarian problem emerged in the early spring of 1984 in the highest circles of the U.S. Department of State. At the time the US came to realize that there was a much stronger power hidden behind Hungary than we previously assumed. It was Mr. Mark Palmer who personally oversaw this delicate issue and called the communist Hungarian ambassador, Mr Salgó to his Office to discuss the case concerning Hungary and which international agreements it went against. Unfortunately, I cannot tell you more about this because I was still active at the time so I am bound by a confidentiality agreement and I have no desire to lose my pension.
Are you currently an advisor at the CIA?
No.
Or somewhere else then?
No, my present status is quite irrelevant. I am retired and moved away from the political battlefield.
So shall we rather discuss present day matters where you are not bound by a confidentiality agreement?
Sure.
What’s your personal assessment of the current geopolitical situation?
In my time of duty, we were afraid of the formation of post-communist dictatorships after the collapse of the Soviet Union. We managed to stop that at the time, but the Democrats were rather inefficient later on. The political situation in the region has become distorted and turbulent; the post communist system is currently widespread. It is just that we have retired since and therefore the problems must be solved by our successors. I wish good luck to them; they need it because they inherited a dangerous world.
Information related to the banning issue is confidential; the US doesn’t disclose many details, so it is difficult to see clearly. Who is personally and presently in charge of the investigations from the US side?
The FBI established a separate department, called Anti-Kleptocracy Unit, as initiated by Attorney General Mr Holder. But such cases are always investigated by other government agencies as well, so the Hungarian financial matters are being looked into by various organisations besides the FBI.
Could you please give us some details?
Fincen, Calvery and Reynolds, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network. Fincen works together with the FBI in the Eastern European region, although this information was released by Mr Holder last May, so I am not telling a secret here.
What will be the outcome of all this?
Revealing the Hungarian network…. you know, this could become a huge international money laundering issue.
Mr Viktor Orbán refused Senator McCain’s charges recently. What is your reaction to that?
Mr Orbán may say whatever he wishes and serves his financial interests; President Clinton put that quite clearly. Mr Orbán has changed his opinion a number of times; he is not a trustworthy character any more. So what he says makes no difference, it is what he does that defines him. We often hear US rhetoric addressing Mr Orbán as a post communist dictator. Just think about the cartoon in the New York Times or the official statement of the Department of State. Mr Orbán cooperates with the local neo-Nazi Jobbik party behind the scenes, that’s where the term neo-Nazi comes from.
What does President Obama think about Hungary in Washington D.C.?
I don’t know what the President thinks about the Hungarian problem, but in Washington this issue usually comes up in conversation along with Greece and the people in the President’s inner circle do worry about the situation. Greece and Hungary come up together recently in the Department of State, just like Golden Dawn and Jobbik. Greece and Hungary have similar extreme neo-Nazi parties. This is a tendency. Jobbik, the party which replaced MIÉP, has a media relationship with Mr Lajos Simicska, who gave them huge amounts of money along with media coverage for campaign. We connected this with Mr Orbán. The threat of fascism is a basis strong enough to act harshly.
Is Jobbik really so dangerous?
Jobbik claims to be nationalistic but in fact has close ties with Russia. It’s notable that a lot of former intelligence agents joined Jobbik as consultants. Some of them were active spies operating in Syria in the 1980’s plotting against Israel. The post communist tendencies are quite clear. Jobbik unites the heritage of both the Nazi past and the communist secret services. (This tendency is) There is a freaky ideology behind this and does not resemble a typical European far right party. The Greek Golden Dawn has an aptitude for aggression and terror as well. Mr Orbán did not raise a word against the election of new Horthy statues, which is quite a gesture towards Jobbik, but an unacceptable move by the standards of the Western world. That’s why the problems are so deep.
What is the real problem, in your opinion?
A new age is coming in the energy sector and Mr Orbán put his dirty fingers into this process. A new energy market of one billion people is becoming a reality. Europe will be purchasing gas from the US from now on, not Russia. Mr Orbán and his Hungarian supporters attacked the US, when they interfered with the shale gas business. Mr Csányi and Mr Orbán are standing up together against US interests in the gas business. Can you imagine the magnitude of the gas business between Europe and America? Business worth several hundred billions of dollars is getting signed between the two continents setting business arrangements for decades. The outcome of this shift in power will push Russia to partner with China. Putin has huge losses in the gas business while Mr. Obama comes out as the winner and can boost the economy of the US just before the election. Putin on the other hand is trying to recover the money in the nuclear energy business.
The Hungarians tried to sabotage this intercontinental business agreement, in which American LNG is shipped to safe European harbours. So the Croatian seashore and ports will be vital to this project. In the next decades LNG shale gas will be going through Croatian ports. The first Croatian LNG port is already under construction. Mr Orbán and his supporters, like Mr Csányi slowed down the LNG business through INA, which OTP owns. Mr Csányi is the majority shareholder of MOL; Mr Hernádi is just the executor of his will. Mr Csányi could sell INA and MOL as well to the Russians, and he makes sure that everybody knows that. The US has already made a decision in this issue, and the Senate will investigate Mr Csányi’s role in the shale gas business.
Are you serious?
Yes, I am. This is on-going. A US Senator from the Committee on Foreign Relations, Chris Murphy, has already started the investigation according to the President’s will. A decision was made to investigate the presence of oligarchs in Hungary, which is a risk for the free energy market. President Obama sent his close colleagues, including Senator Murphy, to Croatia to look for answers in this question. After the visit to Croatia, the US offered to be the intermediary in the conflict between Hungary and Croatia. What that translates to in diplomacy is that the US has an active interest to tackle the issue. So Mr Csányi is ALREADY a problem in Washington. This warning was inefficient in case of Mr Csányi, however. After Senator Murphy’s offer, Mr Csányi continued to threaten INA and announced an unexpected dividend payment, which would make INA go bust along with Croatia. Mr Csányi dictates the currency rate of the Croatian Kuna as well as the Hungarian Forint. As you know, he personally owns 80% of the Hungarian stock market through MOL and OTP.
So can we say that the Hungarians are firebombing the American-European gas business?
Yes, exactly, let me give you another example. Here is the Romanian shale gas business. Chevron was looking for shale gas in Romania since 2012 and they have found it. By 2016, huge quantities of shale gas would have been exploited. US Ambassador of Bucharest, Mr Mark Gitenstein, reported that the Hungarians were very hostile with Chevron in the Romanian gas business and managed to stop the permit from being granted for the investment. Mr Holst, CEO of Chevron, thinks that Mr Csányi has completely killed the shale gas business in the region. Otherwise Mr Hagel, the recently resigned US Secretary of Defence, has close ties with Chevron. I think that Mr Csányi and his old friends are warming up the cold war tension.
And what will be the effect on the Russian gas business?
It is rather awkward to find out that there is Romanian gas at the end of Russian pipeline, so the Russian pipeline network has become obsolete. Russia spent over a hundred billion dollars to connect Siberian gas fields with European markets and by now they have realized that there was shale gas at the end of their pipe in both Romania and Hungary. In addition, US gas tankers could unload shale gas at Croatian ports. This is the end of the Russian gas monopoly with the USA having entered this market. This situation could lead to security issues and a lot of tension; it is like 1984 has returned in 2014.
What do you think about the wide international press coverage of the Paks2 project?
There is enough gas in the market so there is no need for nuclear energy. That’s just not safe. Germany closed its nuclear power plants. Therefore its gas market grew bigger and got opened for American shale gas. In Central Europe, Hungary is the center of Russian nuclear business interests. Nuclear energy, however dangerous, reduces gas consumption. Mr Orbán and Mr Csányi represent Russian nuclear energy business interests. It is not a surprise that Mr István Kocsis initiated the Paks nuclear reactor extension project, who is a close ally of Mr Csányi. Meinl Bank was one of the partner banks involved in the Paks future extension project of Mr Csányi and Mr Kocsis. So it is not a surprise that the Hungarian nuclear technology business shifted towards Russia in Mr Csányi’s era. Later on, Mr Simicska also joined the business apparently. The repeated US approach was again refused by Mr Orbán and Mr Csányi who rather pushed the nuclear energy business.
Hungary has announced to purchase Slovenské elektrárne, an electric utility company in Slovakia, so another two nuclear reactors would belong to the business portfolio using Russian technology. So the Paks project is in fact a business involving three nuclear reactors based on Russian technology and the people behind the business are the Hungarian post-communist elite. Hungary is a key player in the energy business and as such is very important for Mr Putin.
And is there anything that can stop this process?
Let me remind you, that Mr Csányi had already lost one of his close allies in the Croatian issue: Mr Zsolt Hernádi, who was so afraid that he became an alcoholic regardless of his condition (suffering from haematological disorders).
Do you think that it is easy for Mr Goodfriend to see clearly in present day Hungary?
Well, Mr Goodfriend is a media expert just like Mr Palmer was in the 1980s. Mr Goodfriend became the target of Mr Orbán’s anger, who is trying to infiltrate the US Embassy using a few Hungarian secretaries. The real question is whether the Hungarian influence network of the late 1980s is strong enough to have an influence on Mr Goodfriend. Mr Goodfriend has already figured out that he is fighting with the survivors of the 1980s. The banker, Mr Csányi served as the chief accountant of state forestry during the era of Mr Janos Kádár. These forests were popular for game hunting and meeting of the big players of the Communist times and were also the place where a lot of secret soviet military and intelligence objects were built. Mr Csányi became the no. 1 banker in Hungary and the head of OTP just after this confidential career in Mr Kádár’s forests. The foreign cover up companies of OTP Bank provided the secret funds for intelligence operation abroad.
This network of cover up companies is partially still active and is used for current day intelligence operations. Mr Csányi inherited the old communist OTP cover up business network in the USA and Singapore and using this system OTP carried out several shady financial transactions. These Hungarians have a sinful past so they become suspicious again. The current American – Hungarian tension is a heritage, along with the good Russian relationship, this is a classic post communist oligarchy model. Therefore Mr Csányi is one of the biggest successors of the communist secret service.
So who is Hungary really against in this situation?
An alliance of the US, Germany, the UK, Luxemburg, and Sweden. Mr Orbán refused the business approach of Sweden a few years ago, and also some serious diplomatic hiccups happened in the background. Even if the Swedish investment proposals were turned down, the Swedish influence is strong. The Community of Democracies is an intergovernmental coalition under Swedish influence and it is already investigating the Hungarian situation. The Board is going to make a decision on the status of the new candidates and if Hungary continues to ignore basic democratic norms, the Board is going to expel Hungary from the organization. And that would have an effect on Hungarian EU and NATO memberships as well. Directly, however, these Hungarians are facing President Obama’s main political supporters like Ambassador Bell, Mr Holder chief prosecutor and Senator Murphy. So this may the endgame for Mr Orbán’s system. Even if the Hungarian people survive the economic pressure, society will remain divided forever, so he could only rule them as a dictator.
How is Mr Orbán viewed as a politician?
This is a Janus-faced post-communist regime where Mr Orbán is just a brand. Obviously Mr Orbán made a lot of compromises and deals to achieve and accumulate what he has today. His regime resembles Venezuela after Chavez – Mr Orbán even praised Venezuela in the 1980s. He has strong ties with Africa, too, where his father was a demolition expert. He was raised in a poor family but his aunt was a high ranking supporter of the communists. Mr Orbán was deemed a trustworthy person in 1984 belonging to the circle of the Minister of Secret Service, Mr István Horváth. He gained political fame when he demanded that all Soviet troops leave Hungary in 1989. When evaluating the truth behind his radicalism, we must it into account that he knew the head of Secret Service personally and was a close friend of Mr Horvath’s daughter, Ms Andrea Horváth. In fact he did not have to fear anyone given the strong family support behind him. So it was easy for him to play the role of radical provocateur. Mr Orbán’s anticommunist views were questioned by many especially because he is still manifesting communist goals.
What do you mean by post-communist tendency?
I was referring to the trend represented by the Orbán-regime: the idea of full employment, public works programs, nationalization, the Office for National Economic Planning, full media control, usage of communist ideology (“Hungary is performing better”), crowded demonstrations, and – of course – total friendship with Russia. Viktor Orbán is a living caricature of an old communist labour party leader. This is the same as old times. This is what I mean by communist tendencies. The left wing of the parliament has to renew itself in order to be a realistic alternative to the populist Fidesz. It is ironic that Ferenc Gyurcsány could be the means to this, since he was always loyal to the US and the EU, at least in his actions, even though his words were often nonsensical. He is still more acceptable from a western point of view than Viktor Orbán, and it is also in his favour that he can keep Csányi in check.
On the other hand, the Hungarian people voted and granted him a huge majority in the parliament. What do you think about that?
The press was in Orbán’s hands all along; therefore certain information about his family never made it into the newspapers. Stories about his daughter, Ráhel’s soft drug issues and his agriculture investment cases might change people’s minds. And it might personally interest Mr Orbán who gave party drugs to his daughter.
For how long do you think Orbán can continue his crusade against the US?
A person with a landing-strip and a bomb shelter right next to his house will go to the very end of the road. It is the same as old times. On the other hand, it is his people who do the fighting while he tries to stay away from the case.
So in your opinion, does Viktor Orbán stay away from the political battlefield?
Well, yes, and Viktor Orbán sends his most vulnerable, most corrupt politicians into an anti-kleptocracy war against the US. Viktor Orbán himself is a money collector, and his money bag is Lajos Simicska. This is a Hungarian internal politics issue. Looking at it from the US though, it is all the same: a bunch of corrupt Fidesz politicians. And they had a feel to play the big game with the big boys. Obviously, Orbán knows that the FBI could seize Lajos Simicska’s bank accounts and probably Lajos as well, therefore it is in his interest to stay away from Lajos. On the other hand, if Lajos Simicska gets handed over to the FBI, that is surely the end of Viktor Orbán’s political career.
There are many people who try to protect Viktor Orbán: Szijjártó, Lázár, Pintér, Rogán, even Tarlós – what do you think about this strategy?
You know these political mercenaries with their nightmare of a past, would stand no chance in a fight against the world power, should their strength be measured by American standards. Will these political mercenaries protect Viktor Orbán? Against the USA? Until when? How many shots can they bear? They will be Orbán’s orphans, because they will have to fight against the US without him, as orphans, left alone on the battlefield. It is possible that they will make fun of Ambassador Bell as well, pointing at his tie or the way the campaign was supported, but we must see it clearly that these Hungarian politicians are fighting the people of President Obama.
They can call the president of the US directly; meanwhile our Hungarian politicians can call Alcsút, at the best, where their names will go on the butcher’s bill. There might be many political orphans left behind in such war. János Lázár might be one of them in a hail of bullets without as little as an umbrella for protection. It is known that his career started as a money transporter working for a Hungarian mayor and then he inherited the mayor’s $4 million in cash. Lázár’s banking transactions and hunting habits (and buddies) make him vulnerable as well.
György Pető is the economic advisor of Tarlós, Mayor of Budapest, who also directly attacked the US. Pető used to work at the anti-American department of the Hungarian intelligence service. I was surprised to hear that there is an organization called FBI in Hungary, and it’s run by Pető. The FBI headquarter is at Roosevelt square but they changed the name of the square a few years ago – they probably couldn’t identify with President Roosevelt. And we have Tarlós attacking the US. I think it is clear how much the post-communist tendencies jeopardise democracy in Hungary.
Viktor Orbán’s people can be defeated one by one, no doubt about that, and Viktor Orbán cannot protect his people. The question is whether they would fight for him if he cannot protect them. If they leave Hungary, they might be quite surprised what they find, since the U.S. Department of State is liaising with other countries about their case. It is one thing to praise and support a regime being a Fidesz politician out of commitment to the leader. And it is another thing that when you, as a loyal Fidesz politician are targeted personally, and Viktor Orbán is unable to protect you – as it happened with Ildikó Vida.
Do you think that Vida cannot be saved?
I am not yet aware of any extradition procedure due to the account transfers involving Vida. Her main problem is that she is connected to Lajos Simicska and Viktor Orbán. We are talking about Lajos Simicska’s money (wo)man. One of the owners the company called Közgép used to have a bank account in the US for years. This, no doubt, could be investigated and I believe the South-European transactions, too.
After winning the election, Viktor Orbán said, that this is a victory of a political sci-fi. What is your opinion about this?
In my point of view the whole life of Viktor Orbán is a sci-fi, but for the voters the sci-fi is just beginning. You know, sci-fi heroes like Péter Szijjártó (Minister of Foreign Affairs) are rather vulnerable. He is well known by the dealings of his father, since he had mediated between his father, Simicska and Strabag. He has suspicious connections to the known business man, Csaba Tarsoly, and the part of the sci-fi when they investigate the side role of Péter Szijjártó’s organizations in the Zuschlag case is yet to be played.
Antal Rogán attacked Mr Goodfriend personally in the Parliament. How do you react to that?
This is an unprecedented step. Rogán’s name was already noted by the FBI in 2013 concerning his cases of corruption. According to one of these notes, his father was an undercover informant of the communist secret service in a village near the western border of Hungary. As one of the mayors of Budapest, he managed to procure the most expensive and ugliest lampposts in history. The shops of Váci Street, the high street of Budapest, are sometimes owned by very suspicious people or criminals. It was Antal Rogán who helped them take over the shops. In many cases, they became business partners, where the particulars of the business were handled by Balázs Kertész and András Puskás. Antal Rogán has a portfolio of scandals: Szirt Ltd., property businesses, corruption around social housing, dealings with Csányi, and so on. Word of these scandals quickly found their way to the Embassy. I think it is clear, that those who did not get a social apartment also complained at the Embassy, which was just a short walk away. The person in charge of operations is András Puskás, while Csilla Rubovszky managed the property cases of social housing. They both are Antal Rogán’s employees. In the US, if a congressman abuses city assets and it can be proven by hard evidence, the person gets put behind bars for years. When Rogán did this in Hungary, he just moved into a bigger apartment.
Corruption taking place in and around Hungary is not an American crime, because strictly speaking it was not committed on US soil. However, when over a hundred million dollars of corruption money is used in America it directly impacts the US and some European countries as well. The trail of the money can be followed and investigated internationally. The anti money laundering agreements are international and Hungary has signed them, too. What they do not understand in Hungary is that obtaining money coming from corruption is already a crime in itself, and an international one. It is the same as in the Equatorial-Guinea case.
Equatorial Guinea case?
The Anti-Kleptocracy Unit of the FBI, which is now looking into Hungary, froze the accounts holding more than $100 million belonging to the dictator of Equatorial Guinea, and started the prosecution of his son as well. In case of Ukraine, it is the same FBI organisation investigating cases of corruption. Corruption destabilizes democracy in the region and clashes with the business interests of the EU. If we look at the Ukrainian border of Hungary, we see a huge amount of Chinese products coming into the EU. The activity of Iván Kovacsics (resigned deputy leader of the Hungarian Tax Office) is interesting; he bended customs regulations in favour of the Chinese and pocketed significant sums in return. I hope that the initiative of the Anti-Kleptocracy Unit will be effective in Hungary and that Antal Rogán will think the same.
I think we could say that it is not so comfortable to be in Antal Rogán’s shoes at the moment…
Yet Rogán brought up the example of Guantanamo, as I am sure you have heard. I have read Rogán’s statement about Guantanamo… I have only been there once; the place gives you a chill of never-ending captivity. Well, not so much in Hungary. All these gentlemen would need is some common sense. They have to understand that Hungary cannot win an economic war against the US. This is totally absurd.
There have been other war references made by Fidesz; László Kövér was talking about World War 4 in relation to the US…
We are only aware of two World Wars; I don’t see why he would need to talk about WW4, just because people are looking into the surprisingly large bank transfers made by his brother. This is no WW4; this is just a family conflict…
Recently Zoltán Pokorni criticised some steps made by Fidesz. What is your opinion about that?
Yes, he might be smarter than the others, but the Hungarian elite are well-known. We can find István Béres, Pokorni’s money collector, and the property business of the local government provides huge financial opportunities. His father was also an agent of the old regime, with an unclear past; but he popped up through the unions. Orbán sends those people to battle with whom he has no long term plans.
Do you mean they are expendable?
Yes, they have no chance in this war. Viktor Orbán makes the best of it and liquidates the people around him who want his power; practically he uses the US to take out his future rivals. If Orbán was intending to fight seriously, he would send stronger solders from his Christian Democratic base.
What do you think Goodfriend represents in the present day Hungarian political arena?
According to his name and his role, he is the good friend of the Hungarians who teaches them democracy. He used to serve in Syria, which is quite important from the Syrian-Hungarian network point of view. In the 1980’s, the majority of the Syrian generals were trained by Hungarian officers at the Assad Academy, which means connections spreading to both countries. Hence, there was a good reason to think that the communist Hungarians are anti-democratic.
The press goes as far as to attack Mr. Goodfriend’s tie, not just him….
You know the U.S. Department of State examines relations from a higher point of view, I mean global. All Orbán and his people see are internal relationships. Pointing at someone’s tie is another example of short-sightedness and pettiness. Yes, his ties may be old, but at least there are no tie-pins on them, I also wear them very occasionally. On the other hand, it needs to be mentioned that it was spotted by the same Hungarian chief of protocol who has been an informant for the secret service for a long time. It is also important to note that the Hungarian secret service attacked the US through the newspaper Magyar Nemzet which belongs to Simicska. This is hardly acceptable from a NATO member state. Some leaders of Magyar Nemzet are extremely loyal to Russia and have very little understanding of international events.
And how much effort does the US put into investigating the Hungarian problem locally in Budapest?
Well, the Embassy of the US in Budapest is unlike a typical embassy. 50-60 people would be enough to run the Embassy for a country the size of Hungary, but their current headcount is more than 400 people and there has not been an ambassador for a long time. You understand what that means. There is enough capacity and they enjoy the support of the President, the Senate, and the FBI. In the Equatorial Guinea case, $1.1 billion was acquired by the Anti-Kleptocracy Unit, which is the most financially successful part of the FBI. There could be frozen accounts in the Hungarian case as well.
What do you think the CIA does about this case? What does the CIA do?
Well, the CIA is made up of people as well, and most of them speak less Hungarian than me, this is another generation… Surely, Hungary causes problems because it is a strong supporter of Russian energy goals. In my opinion, introducing economic sanctions would be an adequate move, to create a swampy corridor between Russia and the EU. Hungary is economically fragile, could be shaken simply through OTP. So a zone of economical and social chaos would come between the East and West, isolating Russia.
Don’t you worry whether your successors can solve this task?
Well, it is them who need to worry – what a world we left behind for them.
The end of the year is coming. How do you see Hungary in the New Year?
The energy war that Hungary is fighting against the US and its allies will likely push the country into isolation. Orbán could try to decrease the isolation by playing political Russian roulette and approach the Democrats. President Obama’s and Bill Clinton’s favorite issue is climate change. Orbán could offer his support in the UN. I can’t see any other option for him and even this is a high jump. Viktor Orbán will likely choose the presidency system as the escape route and try to increase the distance from the EU, which would help him introduce an Eastern type of presidency system. Sharpening of social tension would be seen in the changing world. But at least the world is watching Hungary as history rewinds the movie roll to the socialist era.
Thank you for the interview.
Neither our editor nor our informant agreed for this article to be published in print. Certain parts of the interview were later withdrawn and had to be deleted. A week after, we received approval from our source that this version may be leaked as is.
